Conjuring Profitable Connection feat. Jennifer Battle
If you’re an entrepreneur, forging connections is so important.
We want our marketing and outreach to help people like, know, and trust us.
Theoretically, this makes them want to purchase things from us, partner with us etc.
My fellow witch and community networking expert Jennifer Battle
has been thinking a lot about the Like, Know, Trust factor,
and how to make sure it centers and honors our most important values.
I love the way she has redefined the concept, and I know you will, too.
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Mentioned:
Jennifer Battle is a Connection Queen and Business Community Leader, who helps fempreneurs break the rules to amplify their brand and business through community, collaboration, and authenticity. Her new podcast Unf*kwitable drops September 12. It celebrates people changing the world by being unapologetically themselves, taking the difficult path, and creating the lives and businesses that they want. Join the community here.
Make Magic:
Jennifer’s Familiarity, Joy, and Integrity cycle
re-envisions Like, Know, Trust as a process of
sharing your authentic self and the values you cherish.
It means being open and honest rather than performative,
and sharing things that speak to and about you,
rather than trying to chase trends.
Transcript: Conjuring Profitable Connection feat. Jennifer Battle (coming soon)
NATALIE MILLER Welcome to Mind Witchery. I’m your host, Natalie Miller, and I’m so glad you’re here.
Hello, my friend. Today's episode is a conjuring, meaning, it is me and another witch talking together about something that we would like more of in the world. And today's conjuring features Jennifer Battle. Jennifer is a business strategist and a community-building networking expert, that is, she helps people forge values-aligned and profitable connections with other folks. Jennifer is the founder and leader of Success Revolution Society, which is a masterminding community for online business owners, where she really practices what she preaches.
So Jennifer joined me to talk about the "like, know, trust" factor. And if you are an entrepreneur, you have likely heard about this: like, know, trust. We want to forge connections with other people where they like us, they know us, and they trust us. And theoretically, this makes them want to purchase things from us, and it makes them want to partner with us, etc.
So Jennifer has a different way of thinking about this, like, know, trust factor. She redefines it completely. And as you know, I am always here for a redefinition. So in the episode today, Jennifer and I talk about how to make genuine and fruitful connections with other people as we are making our way through life and business. I hope you enjoy this conversation and that it inspires you to connect in a new and different way.
[Music]
NATALIE MILLER This week, in today's episode, in this summer of conjurings with fabulous witches from all over the scene, I have Ms. Jennifer Battle here with me today. Jennifer, hello. And, Jennifer, you are the Connection Queen.
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh] I love it when people call me that. I'm a queen who believes in connection. So, yeah, I absolutely love connecting with people, and just getting to engage with them in a nonbusiness-y, human-to-human kind of way. And, lo and behold, it actually tends to work well for business too. So, yeah, they started calling me the Connection Queen.
NATALIE MILLER Yes, I love it. So we are going to talk today about the like, know, trust factor. Any listeners who've been in these entrepreneurial streets for any amount of time have heard about the like, know, trust factor. When did you learn about that idea, the whole concept of it?
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah, probably like most people, I had a business coach. So I've been an entrepreneur for six and a half years now, and I actually started off as a fitness coach. And one of the first like big—when I say big—bigger investments that I made in my business, I hired a business coach, and we're talking about how to get clients. And they're like, "Well, you got to establish that KLT, that know, like, and trust factor."
And the way it was presented to me, and the way I continue to see it presented, is that means on social media, you share more of yourself. So you might share pictures of your dogs, or your family, or you're a family, or personal stories, or, in some [laugh] extreme cases, people would break down and cry in front of the camera because they were trying to establish the fact that they were human, and you should know me, know the ins and outs of my life, you like me, and therefore you trust me, and you buy.
And it's interesting because, yes, I do believe on being your whole self on social, or your whole self in your business. But it just felt a little—I don't know—fake, rehearsed. It didn't seem that genuine. So I recently just started thinking about how could I actually—what are we actually trying to get at with know, like, and trust? I think it was a good idea that through different interpretations or coaches or people using it so often, it kind of really lost its core meaning. So I've really been trying to discover that core meaning.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah, that's very performative, right? It's like, "Here I am in my house with the video camera in my phone, and I'm doing a little show, a performance so that you will like me, and so that you will feel like you know me," right? And other marketing consultants will be like, "Oh, you have to like tell anecdotes that are relatable." Right? It's like the US Magazine, "Stars, they're just like us." Right? But it does feel fake, I think, because it feels performative. It feels very one-sided.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Performative is such a perfect word for that, because that's exactly how I felt. And I'm going to guess people who are listening are probably like nodding their heads, because we were told to basically put on this show, put on this image so that people would like us. And I think back, like, if I'm telling my kid back in elementary school, who might want to make new friends, I would never give them that advice. [laugh]
What's the advice we always got? Oh, be yourself. Go out there, do your thing. But it's almost like we are taught that people don't want to see us. We want to be that cute—[laugh] I always call it like the pink and glittery version of ourselves that is appealing, and it just didn't seem right. And I think we were really looking for something a lot deeper than that, and so I really started to spend this last year redefining what know, like, and trust means, because I do believe that the basics of it are true.
It's like, hey, people really do need to know who they're going to be spending time or investing in. And, sure, they want to like you and, of course, the entrust part is correct, but let's reframe that into words that mean something to us now. So instead of saying know, like, and trust, I started to say familiarity for know; joy for like; and integrity for trust. And I just felt that those were such meatier and more meaningful terms that people could wrap their heads around.
So knowing me, it's not just seeing me doing a dance with my dog, or cute stuff with my dog. Yes, I have two dogs, and I totally put their stuff all over my Instagram. But knowing me might know that I have a kid going off to college, and it's terrifying to me, and exciting, or knowing that like what my values are, and what's super important to me, like, the hill that I would die on. Knowing me might be that like if you hear Drop It Like It's Hot, I'm going to drop it like it's hot.
NATALIE MILLER [laugh]
JENNIFER BATTLE: Like, you've got to know who someone is, you know? It's not that superficialness; it's that deep understanding of who the person is. And I think we saw that, especially post-2020, when you have a lot of business owners, and there's a lot of challenges around racism and systemic racism and violence and women's rights. I mean, you started to see things about people that you either really liked or you really didn't. And then you realize it's like, oh man, I didn't even know that businessperson, or I didn't even know that individual. And that would impact how you do business with them. So that knowing is being really familiar with them on a much, much deeper level.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah. So when we're talking about that like familiarity, what are the ways we cultivate familiarity that aren't necessarily performative? Like, when I think about it for myself, when I'm creating things to send to people or when I'm creating things for people to listen to, I am looking for ways to solicit their participation in that. Right? So it's like I will periodically say like, hey, if there's something that you want a spell for, send me an email. When I am, quote, unquote, creating content, right—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —I'm not just thinking of it as like I am output, and those people are receivers of the output. Right?
JENNIFER BATTLE: Right.
NATALIE MILLER I think of it more as like a back and forth, like a conversation.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Absolutely. If I'm someone who's trying to create familiarity, I guess that might—I'm not sure if that's the right verb, but let's go with it—create familiarity, the things that I'm going to be thinking about is like, well, how am I showing up that's really me, you know? What's the voice that I'm using? What are the words that I'm using? If someone met me in real life, does that person match up with the person that they might see online or in a different community or whatever? It's more about like being exactly who you are, and being that way consistently.
So when I talked about the values piece, and seeing kind of a values disconnect with some business owners, it was because they were putting on a face, and then we realized when shit hit the fan [laugh] that they weren't who they claimed to have been. So I think it's about being exactly who you are, being very honest about who you are, what you believe, what your values are, what your voice is, using the language that you would use consistently around everybody, and don't put on the face or the facade or the voice of the, quote, perfect business owner; just being yourself.
So the familiarity piece is when I'm trying to create familiarity with other people, the first thing [laugh] I have to do is be very comfortable with myself, and then be comfortable enough to show that version of me or that real version of me to everyone else. And then when I'm seeking to get more familiar with someone, what I like to do is just pay attention. I listen to what they say and how they say it, and are they consistent with it, and also just asking questions.
If I am in conversation with someone, most of my coffee chats have zero to do with business. I'm usually like, "Oh yeah, where'd you get that necklace, or tell me about your vacation." [laugh] The last coffee chat I had, we had probably a 20-minute conversation about the Fast & Furious movies. But those are the things that we did that we actually got to know each other, is that we became really familiar with each other. And so that's what I mean. It's like when we're looking for know, like, and trust, we're really first looking to seek familiarity, and through that we find connection.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah, I love that. I'm also interested in drawing a distinction, I think, between sometimes there's a version of vulnerability online that feels performative, right, or that feels just like too much, which is not to say like, listen, if I'm having a challenge or a struggle, it doesn't mean like, oh, don't talk about it. But it's at the same time, I think, sometimes people have confused being real with this kind of raw—I don't know.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Is there a term called toxic vulnerability, because I kind [laugh] of think that that's like the words that come to my mind.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Because like I am all for like being who you honestly are. And if you honestly, like, this is how you show up, or you're having an issue and you vent, or you're crying and that's you, well, go ahead and do it. But if you find yourself saying like, "Oh, I'm having this issue. Let me film it or let me talk about it with my audience," for any reason other than this is how you normally operate, then I just kind of—it's fake, you know?
NATALIE MILLER Yeah.
JENNIFER BATTLE: It's just fake. So I feel like there was this like movement, at least that's what it felt like to me. This is all anecdotal, people, so don't like look up facts—
NATALIE MILLER [laugh]
JENNIFER BATTLE: —[laugh] about this. But I felt like 2018–20 19, I mean, I saw so many people like crying, and showing up, and lots of stories, and lots of like, "Woe is me." And, again, I am not trying to discount people's experiences because, hell, being an entrepreneur, there are many times [laugh], like 10 minutes ago, where I'll be like crying, and having those woe-is-me moments.
But it's not in my character. It's not in my normal sense to share that with the entire world. But it felt like maybe somebody somewhere was giving this advice that vulnerability meant sadness, vulnerability meant crying on camera, vulnerability meant whatever. And I think vulnerability is really more about being open and being honest. And honesty might be that that's not how you act normally in a public forum.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah, I'm with that. I kind of feel this—there's also a version of ranting, right, of like taking a stand. Find a polarity, and take a stand, and like say something controversial. And it's just like you can tell when someone is like, "This is in full integrity for me, and I live this," versus "You know what would probably get a lot of views? Me talking shit about X, Y, Z." Right?
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah. I think I wrote an email once, and I can't remember the wording, but it was kind of like how to be polarizing without being an asshole. [laugh] We know the type of behavior that gets a lot of eyes. But, to me, it almost sounds like a toddler throwing a tantrum. They do it because they know they're going to get attention, versus this is the way that we're going to get to the thing that we want or make change.
So, yeah, it's really interesting. With so many fun trends online these days, or things that we've been taught, or things that, frankly, I'm guilty of—I had to unlearn or just lean more into trusting myself—the "like" part of the know, like, and trust was a big one for me. Most people don't believe this about me because I am a connector, but I am very shy. I am not going to be that person who's like, "What's up everybody?"
A lot of times, people think that if you connect people or you like talking to people, it means you're extroverted and out there, and that is totally not the truth for me. I am naturally very shy. So this concept of "like" was so difficult for me, because I didn't think I was the kind of person who went out there and everyone's like, "Oh, she's great. Let's follow her. Let's buy her stuff."
So I had to change that, especially when I thought about the people that I liked or that I enjoyed interacting with. And I'm going to shout out my friend Tara [sp], because on her CRM, when she meets people, she'll have a category like vibes or high vibes or something to describe how she felt about the person when she met them. It really is like this person makes me smile. This person brings me joy.
So I was like joy, now, that's an emotion that I can wrap my head around. And I know that when I have great interactions with people, and we're laughing, and we're talking, and we're sharing our Vin Diesel stories [laugh] or whatever, that's a joy piece, and we're always looking to seek out people who bring us joy in business. And I thought about my favorite retreats, my favorite coaches and mentors and colleagues that I've worked with. And literally every single time I think of them, it puts a smile on my face.
So instead of "like," I thought about "joy" because that doesn't mean someone has to size me up, and determine if I'm OK. It's like do we have a connection? Are we having fun? Do we have that great energy? And I love looking at my business, and asking myself, is this a good energy? Are we having fun? Do I have joy in my life and in my business?
And it just seemed like a much healthier way to describe that feeling when we talk about know, like, and trust. It's more like the familiarity and the joy. Such a helpful reframe for me, so I'm really hoping that as people hear this, that even if they don't use my reframe, they're open to reframing that concept in a way that makes sense for them.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah. When you even just think about telling an entrepreneur, "So what you want is to get people to like you," it gets very please-y, very people please-y, right? It does spark insecurity. It's like, well, the assumption is they don't like me, and so how do I like make myself likable? How do I—we said that about Hillary Clinton, didn't we—
JENNIFER BATTLE: Oh my goodness.
NATALIE MILLER —in that election, right? Is she likable? Yeah, it is such a shallow, superficial kind of designation. But I love this idea, is there joy? And it makes me think of, you know, like I love your dog content, for example, right—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —because it's just like I love little smushed-face dogs, and you have two very cute ones.
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER And also just, right, I get a sense of like look at these babies. Look how spoiled they are. Look how much warmth and joy is in this home and in this relationship. I can totally see it. Or I love it when people collect memes, and do a meme dump. That also, I'm just like, "I love you," because we clearly have the same sense of humor. That's funny shit that you just shared, right? And so it is like less about likability, and more about, isn't this world amazing? Like, isn't this world full of great and beautiful and joyful elements?
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah. And as you're telling this story, it's like I'm paying attention to how my body feels. Like, I'm laughing along. I'm thinking of the funny memes. I loved you referring to my dogs as smooshed-faced [laugh] little dogs.
NATALIE MILLER [laugh]
JENNIFER BATTLE: This is good, and I feel really relaxed. And when we're talking about like connecting with people, like, isn't that what we want to feel like? We don't want to feel like we're like on a job interview or that we're being grilled. We want to be a 100% ourselves. We want to be smiling. We want to laugh. And I feel like sometimes we forget because some of us who have come from more traditional workplaces and are now entrepreneurs, we kind of forget that we can choose exactly how we want to feel with people. We can choose the people we want to be around. And so that joy component is really, really big.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah, like, what are the sorts of things you like to do? What are the sorts of things you like to read about? Think about what is it that brings you alive and sparks joy for you? And then it's really just sharing that. This is actually—here's a little secret, a little story from Natalie's personal archives.
Once upon a time, I was in graduate school and in a PhD program in English. And I have to tell you, Jennifer, that program destroyed my faith in my ability to write. I had panic attacks when writing just because of the way they treated writing in this program. It was truly horrific. And, no, I did not finish the degree. I did begin my dissertation, but I did not finish it.
And when I wanted to start writing a newsletter for my community, really, right, when I wanted to have an email newsletter, it was so challenging. Like, I had so much trauma to work, like, emotional trauma to work through, to be able to send something that I knew hundreds of eyes would read. And the way I did it was I decided that in the newsletter, every week, I would recommend a thing or two that was bringing me joy. So I would put in like a recipe, or a book I read, or a TV show I watched, or whatever, right? That was what actually enabled me to send my writing out, because I was so self-conscious about it.
Yes, I want to share my thoughts. Yes, I want to establish like a communication channel with people who might be interested in my work. But even more than that, I just want to connect. Now they're called Life Enchanting Treats, and they are still part of the newsletter. And, no, I don't get paid for that, y’all. Just so you know, it's not a sponsorship situation. It literally is, "I like this lip gloss, and I would like to tell you [laugh] about it, right?"
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER But those pieces feel so important to me because that is where I get to connect with people who are like, "I also like cooking. I also like good television. I also love novels. I also like lip gloss," or whatever it is. And it does, it feels good in my body and, in fact, so good in my body that it was able to help me overcome all of this fear about sharing myself. So I love that.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Man, we could trade some higher ed stories. I used to work in higher ed for 15 years, and although I didn't have the PhD experience, I have very similar experiences where when I became an entrepreneur, it became so difficult for me to break out of that box. I was scared to write. And now my newsletter is called That's what she said. So I have come [laugh]—I've finally let it go.
And I think one of the things that I'm most proud of is that people will like, "Oh my gosh, Jennifer, your newsletters are so funny." And I would've never allowed myself to be able to relax, be myself, and be happy and funny and weird, like I did before. Like, let's normalize that our businesses are supposed to be fun. This is a thing we're doing because we decided not to do those other things that sucked.
We want to do fun stuff, so like lean into that, not only with your strategies or tactics but in your relationships with people, because that's where the real connection comes in, I think. I love that you said you just had this desire to connect. You wanted to relax. You wanted to share the things that were important to you. And that's like hitting the nail on the head on what I think know, like, and trust really is supposed to be.
But thinking about familiarity, joy, and then finally like integrity, that's the key. It's like when you put those things together, you can't help but to connect with some amazing people because you're out there being yourself. They're out there being themselves. You're having fun. And then that last piece is that your values aligned or that you have integrity. And I'm sure my textbook definition of integrity that I'm using is not 100% correct. So, Natalie, I know you have this wonderful thing of defining the words.
NATALIE MILLER [laugh]
JENNIFER BATTLE: So I'm like, oh man, she's going to get me on this one. But I will just say when I say integrity, I think about values. I think, is this person's values aligned with me? Is this someone that if I say like, "Hey, check out Natalie," that it's not going to come and bite me in the ass later on? [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER Right.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Do I trust this person with my other contacts? Do I trust this person to do what they say they're going to do? Does this person show up the same way. Like, are they trustworthy? Do they have integrity? And so that's how I define integrity. So when I think about a person that I am familiar with, there's joy and there's integrity, like, this is a bomb-ass person. Like, this is someone that I really do want to spend time with, whether I'm buying their stuff, we're hanging out, we're going on a retreat, we talk on the phone or Voxer, which is my new latest obsession. It doesn't cut you off like Instagram does after one minute, which is very important to someone like me.
But that's exciting. And so if you think about where we started our conversation with know, like, and trust, and this performative, fake, forced kind of thing, and you move to these emotions of like feeling good, knowing someone, wanting to hang out, fully feeling like they have integrity, that's a completely different plane that we're talking about in terms of relationships and connection.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah, and a couple of things come to mind. Like, one is that I love that you were prolific, and you were elaborate in the different ways in which people might connect, right? If you're trying to implement know, like, and trust to make sales, there's know, like, and trust in that, right? [laugh] It's very manipulative. And instead if it's like, OK, what I really want is to connect with people, and that could be in a variety of ways. It could be collaborative, right? It could be that maybe they will attend one of my events, or purchase one of my things. But like when you make that the point, when you make selling your shit the point, know, like, and trust isn't really possible. And, again, I think that comes around to integrity, doesn't it, because—
JENNIFER BATTLE: A hundred per cent.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah. When I think integrity, I think does this person walk their talk? Like, does this person practice what they preach? I see them saying this thing. Do I see them doing it also?
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yes. Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, because the first thing I try to teach people is the point of connection sometimes [laugh] is just connection. You have no idea where it might go or where it might not go. But if you're just really honest with who you are in connecting with someone, eventually good things happen. I just believe that if you put good stuff out there, good stuff will come back to you. They may not come back through that person that you're talking to in the moment.
That's why I'm such an anti-32nd commercial and networking group kind of thing, because the whole goal is what can you do for me? And you completely miss the opportunity to get to know someone in a much deeper, much more meaningful, and much more beneficial way. So sometimes it's like flexing my faith muscle because my faith—when I say faith, I'm thinking about faith in the fact that I just know that it's good to connect honestly and joyfully and openly with people, and that's always a good thing in your business or in life or whatever. And maybe the benefit is that person makes you so happy or you enjoy it so much that you're relaxed, and that allows you to make better decisions, or maybe you have great relationships and, yeah, in the future, you do find a way to work together.
It can be a lot of things. But you have to completely release this idea that we're doing this to get something from each other, because once we do that, it just totally kills it. [laugh] It's all wrong. And so it's hard to teach that in business because business is all about transaction, and if I push this button, this will happen. And we as humans sometimes want that certainty. And the reality is that it's not certain, and you just have to believe in yourself that you're doing good things, and meeting good people is good, and connecting with people is good.
NATALIE MILLER I just had this vision of like a bunch of people in a conference room, and everyone is clutching their own business card, in a conversation but not to actually converse, in a conversation to wait for the right moment to thrust their business card out into the middle, right? There isn't actual connection happening there. It's not connective because you're focused on you. [laugh] You're not actually connecting. What you're trying to do is kind of try to like figure out like where's the opening, right? It's like when you have a conversation with someone, and they're clearly not listening to you. They're just waiting for their turn to talk, right? That doesn't feel good.
JENNIFER BATTLE: It's exactly that feeling. I always jokingly say when I open up my—sometimes I'll do a master class on this kind of topic about connecting with people. And I'm like, we all hate this whole traditional network-y style of thing. But we've been in the rooms with the stale punch and the cookies, and you got your business cards out, and people are asking you questions, but they're only listening for what can you do for them? And they're looking over your shoulder to see if someone better will come in. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER Ugh.
JENNIFER BATTLE: And it's like we've all had that experience, so let's stop repeating it. But sometimes I think we do that because we don't know another way. And so in speaking to you, and teaching the master classes, and in my own community, Success Revolution Society, my goal is to show people another way, and it's a great way, and it's an exciting and fun way to connect with people and be in community with people. You know, I say business community because my community is technically a business community. But we have all said as members how much personal satisfaction and good feeling that we get out of just interacting with each other in a completely different way than what people are used to.
So it's OK to do it differently. It's OK to lean into your intuition, and think about joy, and actually spend time, and not worry about some relationship or connection having to happen in six weeks or three months. It's like, yeah, it'll get there. Relax, chill, let it happen and unfold with absolutely no expectation. I did an experiment once for a whole month where I let that be my philosophy. And interestingly enough, I tracked like the things that came back to me, and I was invited on podcasts, and I was invited in conversation.
I didn't ask for any of these things. These were not pitches. I just said, "I'm going to talk to one or two people that I don't know each week, and get to know them." And the things that just were put out there and came back in the world were amazing. I ended up meeting people who I will be connected with forever, whether it was that person or the person that that person introduced me to. And it's all been quite positive.
So I do really encourage people to open up and start to push back against some of these traditional ways we've done things. And if it starts with a reframe of know, like, and trust, then let it start there. If there's something else that's been burning in your mind that doesn't feel quite right, challenge it. What feels right to you?
NATALIE MILLER Yeah. And I think just releasing that pressure that like, you know, this post needs to yield this many new leads, or this podcast episode needs to get me this many new subscribes or whatever, right, like when we release that pressure, I think of this idea of leaving room for magic, right? And that's, I think, a version of you saying, "flexing your faith muscle," right? It's like, OK, let me just trust that when the timing is right, and when the connection is real and authentic, then it'll bear fruit.
Like, I had this amazing experience this year where there's a woman I met, I'm going to say nine years ago, something like that. We met. We were both at like a little retreat workshop kind of thing, and we really liked each other. We hit it off. We had a couple dinners together. We traded information. But she is like an entrepreneur mom. I'm an entrepreneur mom. We didn't ever really like keep that up, but we were on each other's radars, right?
And then nine years later, she became a phenomenal client for me at exactly the right moment where I could help her the most. Like, she was now in the place where I help people best, and she remembered me, and I remembered her, and we just had the most amazing four months together. That's actually how it works. It took nine years for that connection to bear fruit, but the connection did—for both of us, right—for me, a client, and for her the exact help that she needed.
But the reason that it was able to do that is because the connection was always real. It was never forced. It was never like, "How do I get her to work with me now or how do I"–you know? It was just like, OK, we'll see. In fact, I'm going to continue this story because I think it's important to hear. We had a conversation, she and I, a couple years ago, and we were talking back and forth about, you know, she's kind of interested in coaching but not really sure or whatever. And through that conversation, again, because I really liked her [laugh]—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —I liked her more than I liked the potential of working with her, right? I liked her as a person. She determined at that time, "No, actually, I think my next step is this." And I was like, "Cool, yes, definitely." And because that whole process was so spacious, and because the relationship and the regard for one another was real, it did eventually manifest exactly in the way it was meant to.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah. Numbers are sexy, you know. Like, if I do this, if I do this three times, I'm going to get this thing that pops out, or if I have five conversations, I'm going to get one sale. And for people who like that level of certainty in those numbers—and a lot of times, it's what we saw with our mentors or our consultants or our coaches. We were given this information about how we should operate.
And I think the more that I lean into this part of connection, the more I realize it's like I just have to trust myself, and so my business strategy [laugh] lately is lean into what feels good. And what feels good may not be remotely close to what people are teaching or what, quote, should happen in a business and, yet, I find myself more successful in however I define success, which means happiness, which means really strong connections. It means joy. It means being in community with people who have amazing integrity. It means knowing people really well.
And I'm very successful in those ways that matter to me, and it's because I just decided [laugh] that I'm going to go with what feels right, what feels in integrity with myself and, like you said, allow the magic to happen. A lot of the things that I know I'm talking about actually remind me a lot, Natalie, of your Potency Potion podcast episodes because the ones regarding fuel and vibes and values were so meaningful to me. I think it's so connected to the way I've reframed know, like, and trust, and also the way I think it's connected to advice that I would give other people who might be struggling to make much stronger and more genuine and even more profitable connections in their business.
NATALIE MILLER One more thing I want to be sure to talk about, especially given this last piece that you were talking about, like integrity about what feels good, about what aligns, I think it's really important in this moment that anyone who is wanting to connect remembers how many places there are to connect, right? If you detest social media, you don't have to do it, right?
Like, I'm going to tell them my Facebook thing, Jennifer. That's what [laugh] I'm going to tell them. I used to be a big Facebook user back in the day. I really enjoyed it. Now, to me, Facebook feels like an abandoned mall. I don't know, I still have to go there because that's where the Michaels is, but I don't want to hang out there. It feels dead inside. It feels failing, to me. And so I don't enjoy being there anymore.
So rather than pressuring myself to show up because you have this many followers there, you have this many friends there and that, you know, but it doesn't feel good. So that's just not where I'm going to put my energy, my connection energy, right? Like, same with anyone who's like, "Oh, you have to do TikTok. TikTok's the place to get viral, blah, blah, blah." It's just like but maybe if you enjoy it over there, but if you don't enjoy it there, find somewhere else. Find your local small business association that supports women entrepreneurs. Like, find your Success Revolution Society with Jennifer, right? There are so many places that we can connect. It doesn't have be Instagram. It doesn't have to be the conference that, quote, unquote, everyone is going to. If you don't like conferences, don't go.
JENNIFER BATTLE: For real. [laugh] Yeah, I always tell people like all of this starts with knowing yourself really well, and that's exactly what you were saying. Be honest about who you are, what you like, and what you don't like. I mean, I'll tell you right now, I'm not on Facebook because of the same reason: abandoned mall. But I'm also not on TikTok because other than watching ridiculous videos, I don't get it. I mean, maybe that shows my age a little bit, or really honestly that's just not how I connect. I just don't see that as a means of having real conversation, which is my favorite medium.
So whether I am leaving 17 ridiculous, one-minute Instagram voice notes, or I'm on Voxer, or I do a coffee chat, that's what I love, because that one-on-one get to know someone a little bit more intimately is, like, that's my pocket, you know? That's where I like to be. Now, some people, they're like, "Poke my eyes out. I can't talk to someone for that length of time," and so TikTok might be where it's at or, you know, the meme cycles. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER I love that point, right? I mean, to each her own, but there's no reason to pressure yourself to be somewhere you don't enjoy being. I actually enjoy being on Instagram in a light-touch way, in the kind of way that I've curated for myself, and so I don't mind connecting there. I certainly love this podcast. I love recording this podcast, and I see this podcast as a means of connecting with listeners, with guests like you, right? This feels like a place that I get to connect, that feels very in integrity and feels really good.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah. And I think feeling really good is important. So my other big thing that I always encourage people is rest, or finding a cadence that works for them, or taking breaks because connection, like, real connection should not feel like a job. It shouldn't feel like a checklist item. You'll really connect with people, like, truly connect when you're both in a really good place, and the energy's there.
Again, I keep going back to your vibes and values, and I kept thinking I've had moments where I've woken up, and maybe I had a coffee chat on my calendar, and I just really wasn't feeling it. Like, I knew I was going to be crabby and cranky. It had absolutely nothing to do with the other individual. Maybe I was sick. Maybe I was tired. Maybe I just needed a day, you know? And so I just said, "Hey, let's talk another time."
So having a cadence, like you don't—if I say I wanted to connect with a new person each week, it was like a gut—like a new one or two. Maybe it was zero. Maybe it was three. I don't know. But it wasn't like, OK, I've got to have my checklist. Here's person one, here's person two, and no matter what, you go do it.
It's like sometimes we just have to pause and give ourself a little bit of flexibility and rest, because if you are truly making deeper connections with people, at least for me, it takes energy. And I need to have a moment, and recover, or just enjoy it without necessarily saying, "Oh, this was a great person. Let me move on to the next one."
NATALIE MILLER Yeah, totally. And that comes back again to joy and integrity, right, is that like if it's not feeling that way, then it's not going to work. We have a thing in my house where my partner will ask me if I would like to go to so-and-so's house for whatever. He's like, "Or do you think you'll be over-peopled?" [laugh] Because I over-people very easily.
I over-people very easily because, you know, even if it's like the checker at the grocery store, I will end up having an in-depth conversation [laugh] with them about their nails or whatever, right? [laugh] I do love to connect very intensely, and that requires me to have plenty of time, alone time, and time to replenish, for sure.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Absolutely. Yeah, you've just got to refuel. I don't know. I think when you're doing anything with all your heart, and this sounds like a little Pollyanna, but when you're doing anything with all your heart, you need to give yourself time to just (a) enjoy it, and then understand that it takes something out of you; not necessarily in a bad way, but you get to replenish that.
Something that you taught me is that when I'm about to do big things, the rest can come first. [laugh] It can come before I do the big thing. So just understanding that this is your life, your business, your career. Do it on your terms. You have to, because there's not this, "when I do this, then the joy comes." It's like, no, it comes when you decide that you want to be happy, you want to feel good, you want to be connected.
Sometimes you have to say, forget what everybody is telling me, and just trust yourself. Trust your gut. Know what kind of life or existence [laugh] you want to live, and all of these things we're talking about, whether it's the business or the connections or the marketing, it falls into place when you're able to just forget the script, forget the rules, and lean into you.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah, just [laugh] as if it's this simple, I'm going to say, just be who you are. It is not that simple, especially in a world that is constantly trying to convince us to be something more convenient for all of the systems that are [laugh] oppressing us, right?
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER But it is, I think, like that idea of be who you are. OK. So for familiarity, if we're going to go through these, like, familiarity and joy and integrity, for familiarity with what topics, what kinds of initiatives, it's like, where do you love to connect with people? What are the videos you are watching on TikTok, and what does that tell you? For me, it's animal videos. I will be watching—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —a lot of reels and TikToks about animals. [laugh] I love to talk about animals. I like to connect with people on that, and that doesn't mean that I need to like become a dog trainer—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —or only talk about that. But it does give me a little clue. It's like, oh yeah, that's pretty easy to have those kinds of conversations, and to share that part of me that I'm a dog lover, and always have been. What else do you think is a good way for people to kind of think about conjuring familiarity?
JENNIFER BATTLE: That's such a great question because I think a lot of folks are so interested in this approach, but they're like, "Where do I start with this?" Because let's say you get on a coffee chat, are you just staring at the other person, and saying whatever? And so I think for people who are shy, like me, who might need some nudges or prompts, I just think like if I were talking to my very best friend, what's the thing that I would ask her about? And so it might be something like—oh, geez [laugh], no, I can't ask that. I mean, this is [laugh] a podcast. This is my very best friend, so it's kind of like [laugh] some of this stuff—
NATALIE MILLER [laugh]
JENNIFER BATTLE: —I'm like, no, she wouldn't appreciate me sharing that. But it might be like, oh, so sometimes I ask questions like, "What are you looking forward to, or what was fun this week for you?" Typically, I'm very clumsy. I usually have a story about how I've tripped or fallen over something, or I'm rushing to get to the camera. My dogs are great for entertainment like that because, every now and then, I'll be going about my business, and then they flop on a camera like, hey, and it just naturally flows.
But I kind of think of it as, you know, sometimes I pretend like I kind of already know this person a little bit, because I do in a way, and I'll just talk to them. So let conversations flow, and forget the script. So on Netflix, I just finished literally binging four seasons of the show called Never Have I Ever with Mindy—created by Mindy Kaling. I cried like a baby the entire time. It was so good. I loved it. So of course now I'm like, "Hey, have you ever watched Never Have I Ever?" And then maybe the answer's no. It's like, "OK, what are you watching?"
And then I can tell you it created like literally one of my closest friends over our mutual love of Game of Thrones. I mean, we talk about it all the time, which led to other conversations. I guess there's no formula, but I would start by speaking to them like you would [laugh] someone that you've just come across, or you mentioned the person at the grocery store, if they have cool nails, or if someone has a Star Wars T-shirt, or you see something in the background. Just be curious.
NATALIE MILLER Right, yeah. And it's about what you're actually interested in, right? So I have this coach who starts [0:50:13]. She's like, "OK, what's everybody watching right now?" And that's where we start. And it's not like, "I'm Natalie Miller, I live in Silver Spring"—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —"Maryland, and I'm a coach for entrepreneur…" It's like no. It's like, "I watched Industry twice because I loved it so much. So it's like that kind of thing for familiarity. That's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking it's just like what are you actually interested in? What do you actually want to talk about, for real, for real? And then trust that that conversation is going to help you discover your shared values, and is going to help you figure out where you connect. Yeah. OK. So for joy, I think same, right? It's like, what lights you up? What's bringing you alive? What do you want more of in the world? What do you want to share?
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah. And for me, I actually think of it when I am—let's say you and I are in conversation. When I think about joy, I'm like, "Does this person light me up? Am I having fun?" And that's kind of how I'm looking at it. So it's more of a gut and trust my feeling piece, versus, oh, this person could be a client, or they're saying something really cool. But it's like meh. I mean, it really is like would I want to spend more time with this person? [laugh] Am I having fun? Did they say something funny?
So, yeah, when I talk to people, I will write down whether, hey, there wasn't really a good connection. And oftentimes, they're very nice people, and I don't want you to think that when I'm saying there was no joy, I mean that they were horrible people. But I've had conversations with people who were really cool and doing great things, but we just weren't like a person connection match. And that's OK too.
Our goal is, I mean, I think especially I grew up, as a woman and as a Black woman, making sure I want people to like me, and not see me as the angry Black woman, and to make myself more palatable. So I think oftentimes, we get this message that we're supposed to like everybody, and if we don't, there's either something wrong with me or there's something wrong with them. And that's not true. It's like some people are real cool, but they're just not your cup of tea.
So I am honestly thinking like, as we're having conversation, [laugh] is this fun? Is there joy? And if there's not, it doesn't mean anything. It just means that I probably will not continue to get to know them better. I mean, I kind of feel like I'm talking about like a dating show or The Bachelor or something. They don't get a rose, but they're good people. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER [laugh] Yeah. But it is that thing where it's like what is the vibe here? What's the vibe between us? And also when we're thinking about making our own stuff, right, like, so yeah, what is it that I—what do I want to be emanating into the world? Like, you know, if it's not maybe always exactly joy, I think for me, what do I want to be broadcasting and emanating into the world? It is adjacent to joy, at least, right? It's some kind of—
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah, it's joy adjacent. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER It's a joy adjacent, yeah.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Meaning that when people experience me, what are they feeling? And, you know, it doesn't mean that I'm lighting up all the time, and there's a ball of whatever. Maybe it's just a feeling of like comradery, like, I totally get her. I really like her. And I've learned to trust that more than—
NATALIE MILLER And the point isn't—totally. No, I'm interrupting because I'm so excited because I do want to come back around to that point of like it's not convincing you to like me. It's emanating here's what is joy for me, and so if you like it, you will vibe with it, and we will connect. But it is coming from this very self-centered, like, centered in myself place rather than a, "You know what's trending right now"—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —"you know, this approach to a reel." And I'm like, "Well, I'm not going to just do something because you're telling me other people are going to like it. I'm going to be who I am. I'm going to be who I am."
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah. It's kind of what people are trying to tell you when they're like the right people will be attracted to you. It's true, because when your energy, your honest energy that's out there, and you're talking about the real stuff that is important to you, and that other person is doing the same, you connect.
I mean, one of my tightest friends that I literally met last year, her name is Sara [sp], and I think that's exactly how we met. Like, I don't know, I was probably making some horrible, weird joke, and someone shared it, and she saw it, thought it was hilarious, then kind of creeped on my thing, and then we just started chatting back and forth. And I'm like, "I think we're going to be friends." She's like, "I think so too." [laugh] And it took off from there.
But, honestly, when I was putting that stuff out there, it was not like, "Who's going to like me, and come to the dark side with me?" It's more like, "Hey, this is just me, and this is how I use social media," and that person connected and vibed and had a very similar energy, and now it works. We work with each other all the time. We're friends. We talk to each other. So, yeah, it works.
NATALIE MILLER And then this last piece, integrity, which of course is very near and dear to me, is this like I'm walking my talk, or at least I'm fucking trying [laugh], right?
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER And I'm not a different person in real life, although I have been told I'm shorter than people expect. [laugh]
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER But I'm not a different person.
JENNIFER BATTLE: But you're not telling people you're six-two. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER Exactly, right? Yeah. It's like, of course, it's going to be a little bit different because people are contextual. But, at the same time, it's like you aren't going to find a radically different version of me because I am being myself. I'm being myself wherever I'm going. And, listen, that's not small. That's really big. But the key to that trust, that faith muscle, that magnetism that you were talking about, I truly believe that is the key.
You can only send out the clear call signal when the signal is like it's unfiltered from you, right? Then the call signal is clear, and then, yes, people can pick up on it. If you're sending out this signal this direction, and that signal that direction, or you're sending out a signal, and then when people actually come in to be with you, all of a sudden, they can't find that vibe, they can't find that signal anymore, that's only a recipe for disaster.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah, red flag city. I think a huge part of that is knowing who you are. And that's the one thing that I wish I would see more mentors and coaches spend time doing, because you can only be really clear in projecting that thing when you know what that thing is for you, or those things. And so that's why I'm a huge proponent of values and being values-aligned.
But in order to do—you have to know what is important to you. What is the thing that's important? And we often, you know, we do these—like, there's these values exercises, blah, blah, blah. Forget them. You know the thing. Someone used to tell me, "You know what's important to you based on how you're spending your time and how you're spending your money, or how you want to spend your time and your money if you don't have any." [laugh]
So really think about like that thing, those things that are so just fundamental to you. But I don't think oftentimes we spend time thinking about that, or when we think about values we're thinking about like writing it on a piece of paper or having it be a piece of marketing materials. But I think it kind of goes back to knowing yourself, taking time with yourself so that when you do put your stuff out there in the world, you're really, really clear and honest and feel good about who you are and what you're saying and what you're putting out there.
NATALIE MILLER Yeah, it's that whole-self-honoring approach where it's like I'm not going to try to be someone else. I'm not going to try to like what I don't like. I'm going to be who I am, and I'm going to figure out where I can do that, right?
JENNIFER BATTLE: Yeah.
NATALIE MILLER It's like I don't need to change who I am. I could change with whom I'm hanging out. I can change where I'm hanging out. I can change that, and I can just find the places that suit me, the places and the people that suit me. All right, Ms. Jennifer, well, thank you so much—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —for coming on to Mind Witchery today to talk about your total reframe about the know, like, and trust. Where can our sweet listener come and find more from you?
JENNIFER BATTLE: I would love to have people check me out on Instagram at jenniferbattle_, so that's my first name, last name with a little line underneath. [laugh] And you can see pictures of my smushed-face dogs. You can see all the stuff that I'm up to and what I put out there, and then you could judge for yourself if I'm someone that gives you the know, like, and trust or the familiarity, joy, and integrity vibes.
NATALIE MILLER Yes, you can come feel into it. I highly recommend. All right, Jennifer, thank you so much for coming. My sweet listener, thank you so much for being here with us. Bye for now.
JENNIFER BATTLE: Bye-bye.
[Music]
Thank you for listening to this episode of Mind Witchery. To catch all the magic I’m offering, please subscribe to the show, or if you want a little bit of weekly witchiness in your inbox, sign up for my Sunday Letter at mindwitchery.com. If today’s episode made you think of a friend or loved one, your sister, your neighbor, please tell them about it. We need more magic-makers in this troubled world.
Like all good things, this podcast is co-created by stellar people. Our music is by fabulous DJ, artist, and producer, Shammy Dee. Our gorgeous art is by the sorcerers at New Moon Creative. Mind Witchery is produced in conjunction with Particulate Media, K.O. Myers, executive producer. And I am Natalie Miller. Till next time.
JENNIFER BATTLE: You have videos. My dogs are sleeping in the background, and Ginger is deciding to make her appearance, and they've both been snoring really loudly. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER Yes, well—
JENNIFER BATTLE: So hopefully your sound people can cut that out.
NATALIE MILLER It will neither be the first nor last time—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER —a dog with a smushed face has snored on Mind Witchery.
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER So that's usually Kevin's role, but—
JENNIFER BATTLE: [laugh]
End of recording